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Talk:Mirror universe/archive
I think the mirror universe was created by Captain Kirk. Although McCoy might be more responsible then Kirk is. In the Episode "City on the Edge of Forever" our history was pushed aside and one in which presumably the Nazis ruled was created. Anyways, I think that "Mirror, Mirror" might mark Kirk's second entry into the mirror universe, the first being when they were at the Guardian of Forever. The theory is simply that the mirror universe is the inevitable outcome of the effect of saving Edith in "City". Remember Scotty did say, "Sulu is a security chief like the old Gestapo." Just an interesting thought. -- TOSrules 10:42, 26 Aug 2004 (CEST) :A nice theory. Here's another one: according to the many-worlds interpretation of quantum theory (which is used in Star Trek universe as well, see TNG: "Parallels"), when a sub-atomic particle can do two things, two universes split off in which both options occur. The way I understand it, the mirror universe is one of the countless upon countless possible quantum realities. I like your theory better, but I think this more likely, especially since "Parallels". -- Redge | ''Talk'' 16:25, 26 Aug 2004 (CEST) ::I've entertained that idea, but then you'd have a 1 in a billion billion chance of hitting a universe so exactly opposite. And that is a VERY conservative estimate. This way, it sets reason for them to hit that universe. Of course proving either theory to be correct would be impossible. Although my theory would be easier to prove because you'd be more likely to find something hard because you know the universe, when the parallel theory could be any ship we don't see, and even the idea that they never opened up into that universe.--TOSrules 23:15, 26 Aug 2004 (CEST) :::Actually, the chances of hitting such a universe aren't so small as you'd think. The chances of hitting one specific universe are so astronomically small we probably couldn't even conceive it, but the chances of hitting a universe with characteristics opposite to the universe as we know it, aren't that small, as you'd not only have countless universes like ours, but also countless universes like theirs. Besides, the mirror universe isn't so different from ours as the producers would like us to believe. They have exactly the same physics, people in it look exactly like their counterparts, etc. The only thing different is politics and morals. -- Redge | ''Talk'' 16:31, 27 Aug 2004 (CEST) ::::I just assumed that although there are millions of universes, the mirror universe shared some kind of link to ours. That's why there were so many encounters. 2 of 4 :::::I think First Contact in Star Trek: First Contact is responsible. My source is, of course, Shatner's and Reeves-Stevens' Star Trek: The Mirror Universe Trilogy saga, where Spock extensively explains (or rather, implies, as he never mentions the Enterprise-E's involvement) that Humans and Vulcans became a more militaristic and barbarian Empire, ever since First Contact occured. Everything else was pretty much the same. And I agree. I mean, Cochrane in the original universe, "our universe", evolved from the movie version into the Metamorphosis TOS episode, due to his extensive lifespan, and acquired the wisdom every Starfleet officer in FC tell him he supposedly had. Whereas, I am led to believe that Cochrane from the FC and onward, NEVER really became the great man he was by the 23rd century. I mean, with the knowledge he had of the history, of the future, his future, it is understandable that he make a different choice for the future. And his choice to be more technologically advanced than they would originally be, to protect themselves from the Borg effect, led to a more dangerous, and retrospectively worse path. But the intention was good. You may ask how Cochrane could still know the future after FC, given that the Enterprise crew could've erased his memory with them somehow.. In Preserver, it explains with a great detail Cochrane's aftermath on FC, and how he came to his decision to tell the Vulcans of the Borg and the future that lie ahead.. :::::I am really more willing to take that suggestion over the ludicrous Enterprise explanation. Even if that means that to reject official continuity for non-canon, non-official novel continuity (which I already did). It just excited me more and FEELS more right with everything we knew prior to Enterprise. :::::What do you think? User:Captain James T. Kirk ::::::I think most of the explanations of the mirror universe from the Shatner novels are pure bunk. They are non-canon and don't really give much respect to the qualities of the mirror universe as seen in the televised episodes. I'm glad that non-canon information isnt included in MA articles like this one, because it is really contradictory. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 14:41, 2 Aug 2005 (UTC) :::::::Not to be rude, but how are they contradictory? I think they tie very well - Spock helps mirror Kirk rise into Emperor Tiberius I, then forces him out, creating a peacefull galaxtic society, that as Major mirror Kira explained, was completely unprepared for the attack made by the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance, which as the novels explain, was formed by Tiberius! It'd reasonable, that instead of the Khitomer Conference that happened in Star Trek VI, the alliance happened at that time (mirroring -:)- yet again their differences as universes, one universe had the Federation coming in peace with the Klingons, whereas in the other the Klingons with the Cardassians went on to destroy the Terran Empire - and Kirk is essential element in both events), and some time after, Tiberius dissapeared for 78 years (like Kirk) when he was in hibernation sleep, only to reappear in the 24th century. And the divergence of the mirror universe is very well explained - I see First Contact since I read these novels with a wholly new light. I refuse to accept Enterprise's continuity, because that one makes the least sense to me, completely disrespects what came before and is contradictory. Add to that, the inclusion of the Preservers who want at one point to destroy one of the universe by overlaping it with a new matrix, so that individuality can be preserved. I think Reeves-Stevens' have to do much with the continuity, and it really is excellent. Its just sad that isn't canon. It would've rocked if Enterprise somehow accepted the backstory given in the Shatner novels and made a storyline out of that material. That alone would be enough to accept it as a Star Trek feature, and not as a bad imitation of what gone before (which it is). User:Captain James T. KirkUser talk:Captain James T. Kirktalk ::::::::Mirror Spock gives Kirk the Nazi salute (though originally borrowed by Hitler from that of the Roman Empire's legionaires) when he beams aboard ISS Enterprise from the "good" version of Halka. This aspect lends credibility to Enterprise's presentation of its mirror-world's totalitarian state as "centuries" (namely two) old. --ChrisK 13:22, 7 April 2006 (UTC) No Branching... I personally don't invest much interest into the branching concept, that the mirror universe was created by the possible branches from a single event. I prefer to think that the mirror universe mirrors all human history, rather than just a span of a few hundred years. So, any moment in human history has its mirror universe equivalent. :This might be cleared up once and for all on Enterprise in a few weeks' time. Alex Peckover 03:42, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT) In a Mirror, Darkly I noticed an interesting conversation in Part 2 of this episode, which may or may not be relevant to this article. I've got at least a prototype mention of it that could be used in this article, but I'm not sure where to put it. Anybody got an opinion? What I would insert: :According to the mirror Phlox in "In a Mirror, Darkly, Part II", the literature of the Earth of the mirror universe is much more warlike than our universe, with the apparent exception of Shakespeare's works. --umrguy42 00:46, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) Stagnant technology in the Terran Empire Note: This discussion started here. Hi, while I don't like to criticize, was it ever mentioned anywhere that the Terran Empire had become techonologically stagnant? I was just wondering, as your latest addition to the mirror universe article seems to be mainly speculative. --umrguy42 04:56, 1 May 2005 (UTC) : In the 22nd century, the ♁-Empire gets a Constitution-class ship. A hundred and twelve years later, the ♁-Empire still uses Constitution-class ships. If Daniels would give our Archer a Constitution-class ship, Kirk would command a Sovereign-class ship and Picard would pilot a ship in the same class as ' USS '' Enterprise '' (NCC-1701-J). — ¡Take that Borg and Dominion! ' Perhaps the Vulcans refusing to share technology is good because it forces us to innovate. The ♁-Empire went so far so fast using technology plundered from the Vulcans. Empress Hoshi Sato Ⅰ takes over control of the ♁-Empire and crushes a rebellion using future technology from another universe. The ♁-Empire seems dependent on assimilating technology from elsewhere. — — Ŭalabio 05:47, 1 May 2005 (UTC) Speculation There seems to be a lot of speculation and I'm not sure if it belongs in the article as an actual part of the main content, including the following: :Because of the intermittent nature of contact with the Mirror Universe, very little information on its history and timeline is known. It has yet to be determined if this is some kind of alternate timeline that could possibly have diverged from our own in some manner, or if the two universes share a deeper connection that makes them move in opposite to each other while still maintaining a persistent series of crossovers and transferences. :''Whether or not the two universes are divergent, they seem tied and inverted. Most individuals have analogues, but social status and whether people are good or evil by our ethics are mostly but not perfectly reversed. The effect is like taking a picture of our universe and taking the negative, flipping it horizontally, and partially melting it so that it becomes extremely distorted. Although very different from our universe, most new people born in one universe have new analogues born in the other universe, showing that some tie must exist between the universes. Also, the individuals need to be identified as their own selves and not so-and-so's counterpart all the time. It has to be written from the MU perspective, and not necessarily our perspective of it. --Gvsualan 14:29, 5 May 2005 (UTC) In a Mirror, Darkly Part II Phlox makes a comparison between human literature in the mirror universe and that which is recorded in the Defiant's memory banks. Apparently, only Shakespeare was as violent as his mirror equivalent. Some of this dialogue could be included here. First Contact Terrans and other species are ''all more aggressive and bloodthirsty in the mirror universe than in our own (hard as that is to believe). It's not clear that the "First Contact" event wasn't a prelude to invasion. At least T'Pol, in the ENT mirror universe episodes, shows the same aggressive, violent behavior as the humans. It's unclear whether this is innate or due to being a subject species. Either way, I don't think it's a good idea to assert that Cochrane's firing was necessarily a misguided mistake. ::Interesting, but untill i See, or hear other wise, I will belive that perhaps T'pol's addtitude simply comes from being a slave all theose years. -- User:Terran Officer Possible Featured Article? I think that, with a few more pictures and maybe a bit more comprehensive a breakdown - looking at the Terran Empire and Klingon/Cardassian Alliance in subsections, this could be a featured article. It has all of the information it needs, just needs to be prettied up a bit. --Werideatdusk 02:29, 7 Aug 2005 (UTC) Reverted I reverted a change which added a note to the apocrypha paragraph about the mirror universe being derived from episode writers' earlier novels co-written with Shatner -- the ENT version of the mirror universe seemed to stretch back further than 2063 at First Contact -- Archer said the Terran Empire had been around for "hundreds of years" -- this indicates the "point of divergence" would have to be hundreds of years before First Contact -- way before 2063. Furthermore, I consider this to be an indication that the mirror universe continues to "mirror" our own without any "point of divergence" possible -- it simply is an opposed duplicate to events here, caused by a strange probability -- its not something created like an alternate timeline -- it is a true parallel universe -- one that parallels without ever having been identical to our own. However both the "parallel" theory and the "divergent" theory are speculation -- but the parallel version has the advantage of being based on the notes and intentions of the TOS and DS9 writers (as well as the ENT references, which seem to agree). -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 05:45, 7 Aug 2005 (UTC) Thanks for catching that. I had made the change based on a discussion I had with a friend, and just now remembered Mirror Phlox's comments about the classic literature being slightly different in the two universes. Very shrewd. --Werideatdusk 05:58, 7 Aug 2005 (UTC) : This comment seems based on Picard's research in Dark Mirror comparing literary authors, including Shakespeare. The agony booth is described in a way very similar to its description in Diane Duane's novel as well, in which mirror-Troi considers the latest model to be progress. Also, in both works someone from the MU draws a starship from the Federation into the MU. The Empire's inclusion device in Dark Mirror becomes the Tholian's tri-cobalt warhead in IaMD. Star Trek: Voyager - Elite Force I've recently finished playing ST:VOY Elite Force and i dont recall anything about the mirror universe in the game... Slipzen 21:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC) :The Constitution class starship you go through in the game is from the mirror universe, as is evident from the familiar stabbed-Earth symbol decorating the doors and walls of the corridors. It's in the level called "Disorder" and its subsequent level. You gotta sneak past Starfleet officers dressed in 23rd century Mirror Universe uniforms. You gotta remember that level. :) --From Andoria with Love 22:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC) :: Ah, ok. I was probably to involved in playing to notice :D Slipzen 22:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)